Here some thoughts on veganism as opposed to vegetarianism.
We obviously all agree that it is perfectly natural for all members of the animal specie (of which humans belong), to kill and eat other animals. I am sure we also agree that it is common for all members of the animal species to play and kill in a cruel manner (I needn’t remind either of you that most predators eat their prey alive and that your nice cats (who I love) can spend hours playing with a mouse and then leave it uneaten but dying). Finally I am sure that we all agree and are aware of that many animals are not build to live of fallen fruit only – their stomachs would collapse and they would die.
Shut up and eat your vegetables
This brings us to the next point. Apart from looking at our digestive system to determine if we are carnivorous, omnivorous or herbivorous; an easy way to determine that man was actually made as an omnivorous with exceptional predator skills are having a look at our face. Eyes pointing forward and sharp corner teeth being the main hints visible to the naked eye.
For those of you that call yourselves Christians, you should appreciate that even the prophet Jesus drank milk, and that animals according to the bible are lesser beings.
So the difference between veganism and vegetarianism is as I see it very crucial, and I would believe that many vegetarians would shy away from being classified with vegans.
A vegetarian does not eat/like meat. Some of them might eat eggs, fish and even chicken. They mostly start as vegetarians at a young age and are basing their dislike for meat in all sorts of things – sometimes respect for animal rights but most often that they think it is disgusting to eat cadavers. To be a vegetarian is a personal choice that I respect 100%.
A vegan (and here you must correct me if I am wrong) believes that humans and animals are equal. In fact he believes that animals are more pure beings than humans: he sees them in much the same way as the bible sees children – they are innocent.
Because of this he will not exploit or profit on then in any way. In fact he will not eat honey as it is stealing the labour of the bees, he will not drink milk because it is stealing fro the cows, he will not wear leather shoes as it for him would be the same as wearing shoes made of human skin. Furthermore he is against having horses draw carriages, riding them or in any way “use” an animal. Most of them however agrees that having a dog and a cute cat is perfectly acceptable – and just a proof that you are an animal lover.
Until this point I have just been rambling the facts, and I am sure that I have not and cannot have offended anyone, so I thank you for having taken the time to read this far.
Here is where I believe “the chain jumps off the crank” as we say in my part of the world:
Veganism is a political, indoctrinated, non-liberal, anti-human missionary city-dweller movement. It is clearly a “we-know-best” movement that is working against what is natural to elevate humans to a higher state of perceived moral. It is only practised by choice in the developed world and mainly in larger cities by people that have no knowledge or understanding of nature. People that Believe and have made their doctrine based on what they feel with their uneducated city-dweller hearts.
They do not say animals should be treated respectfully and live and die in a stress-free environment. They effectively say that animals should be left alone and that people should should live from what grows out of the earth. Their lack of understanding of nature, leads them to believe that a horse is being hurt if it is ridden, but that a purring cat is perfectly at ease lying in their lap watching tv. It is this very selective and misguided understanding of nature that scares me, and makes veganism a clear doctrine along with fanatic Islam, Jehovah’s Witnesses and the other crack-pot ideas that man made up.
Veganism
I do not believe that an animal is equal in rights to a human. I do not believe that animals should be invited to vote in the next general election. Nor do I believe that an dog dislikes walking on a leash with its master, a cat dislikes lying on the lap of its mistress; and a horse loves pulling the carriage around the streets of Rome with his master Luigi de la Pata.
I believe that animals are our servants and property. I believe that we are legally and morally obliged to take care of them and make sure they have the best conditions under our care. It is that simple! If we want to eat jamon y queso (ham and cheese), we must make sure that the pigs had a good life and were not stressed and did not suffer in their slaughter. We must also make sure that the cow enjoyed her life and giving milk. In the same way we must make sure that our cat is happy and cared for; and that our dog is not spoiled and bored in our household.
What will be the next ism? Will it be people saying that we should not eat plants or fruits but only animals? The logic would be perfectly (un)sound and (in)sane here as well: why should us animals eat and prey on another “specie” (plants)? What have they ever done to hurt us? Obviously there is life force in a straw of corn as well…
Dear Nancy,
Firstly I am not that bothered at all. I just love a good discussion
) What do you call it – a devils advocate? So, I will just dissect your comments to analyse and attack them ;o)
I do not necessarily agree that vegetarians are more animal caring than normal eaters. Vegans seem to have placed a romantic human-like concept on animals; meaning that they might hesitate to show leadership and power towards animals that only understand that language. In effect cuddling and spoiling their dog, which then turns into a little dictator that bites other dogs and humans.
You move on to the part about evil and good. First of all I am sure that you agree that humans invented the concept of good and evil? Not animals. Consider child abuse, incest and rape in the animal kingdom, without laughing. That happens daily! As for animals killing to eat only; I am sad to say that it is not so. Even herbivore animals murder outsiders and enemies. Cats are famed for “playing with the food” and often do not bother eating it afterwards. Dolphins and monkeys are the same.
Uneducatedness bothers me. It bothers me when people run politics based on their personal feelings and poor knowledge of reality. Again I discern between normal vegetarians and “political vegans” who feel we should not eat honey as it hurts the animals, that we can’t drink milk, cheese, etc.
I think that vegans/vegetarians may be more sensitive to the needs of animals. That makes some sense, doesn’t it? I don’t think they are being anti-human. I think they are showing us the dark capabilities of the human race. You must agree that humans can be cruel. Look at the statistics for child abuse, rape, murder….etc. There are people who would no more think of hurting an animal than hurting a person. This doesn’t mean that they think about superiority or inferiority of humans. This just means that they are compassionate people. I don’t know why this bothers you. I don’t mean that in a bad way. I have no animosity toward you at all. You seem like a nice person. But I would ask myself why the perceptions or beliefs of others bothers you so much. You are right; we live by human rules and human dogma, but look how much that has hurt us. We, as humans, are the worst war mongers on the planet. Animals kill for need, humans kill sometimes for sport. How does that make sense to you?
Dear Nancy,
Thank you for your comments. However I am discerning between “political vegans” and vegetarians. I do not believe you fall into the “political vegan” category and I have all the respect for your personal choice not to eat meat. I think it would be easy not to eat meat and considering that modern occidental man is not exactly starved; it is hardly necessary any more to get the extra nutritional boost that meat gives us.
My issue with political vegans and what I saw on Cathy’s 2 Facebook pages were that they were drowning in what I would describe as political SPAM about cute looking puppies, kittens and anti-human comments. Humans are de facto superior to animals. We rule this world and we decides (in fact we invented) what is right and wrong. Personally I think that we should treat animals respectful and I believe that torturing or hurting animals for no purpose should be punished.
As to crashing Knights of Columbus meetings; sure I would. I am disgusted with religious people and dogma. Religion is counter-productive for humans and when-ever religious groups happen to do good it is as a dysfunction to their real aim.
Hi Jens,
I guess I am getting into this debate late in the game. I have read through your posts and you have some interesting thoughts about vegetarians. The one issue I have that I would like to address is your thinking that all vegans/vegetarians are city dwellers. I grew up in South Philly, not the most socially conscious place in the world. I was born in 1955. Meat was a staple (especially in our Italian community), salads were served at the end of the meal, almost as an afterthought. My first real memory of eating meat….when put in my mouth, it tasted bad. And it had an aftertaste that made me gag. I sat at the table every night, staring at the meat I was supposed to eat before I could leave the table. I found great ways to hide it…..but was always found out! My parents punished me for not liking the taste of meat. To make a long story short, I left the city at 19 and moved to a more country town setting. Living in the country environment did not make me like meat any better. So I have to disagree with your city dweller theory. There are just some people that don’t like meat! Just like there are some people that don’t like mushrooms. The facebook site that Cathy has put up is just a place where vegetarians/vegans can come to share recipes and offer support. Do you think it is easy to be a vegetarian?? The only analogy I can give you is that its like being left handed (which I am). The world we live in is geared toward right handed persons. We lefties have learned to live in a right handed world. So would you go onto a website and criticize left handed people? I have no more control over whether I like meat than I do about being left handed. Try to understand that, get passed this and move on. Don’t purposely annoy people that are just gathering together because of their belief. Do you crash the Knights of Columbus or the A.A.? Move on child. Thank you!
Dear Chanel,
I am not sure if you are the same person as either of the other people I have spoken to.
I completely agree that it can be beneficial to your body to be a vegetarian and I have never said that I had any problems with people that choose to be vegetarians (as unnatural as it might be for an omnivore like man). In fact my dear grandmother has been a vegetarian since the First World War!
What I discern between is “being a vegetarian” och “being a political vegan”. Obviously you belong to the last part as you are quick to mention the other popular things you are/have been fighting for (gay rights, women rights, environment, etc) and top it off by deciding that you are able to judge what “good moral” is
)
Your next rant-part about omnivores (I don’t believe that you have ever met a pure carnivore human?) being unintelligent and defending themselves with dogma like the bible and comments like “plants have feeling too” is entertaining. Again it clearly shows that you have disdain for the opinions of other people; and have long since placed yourself at the top of the moral mountain, where you decide what is right and wrong.
You then mention the damage that humans have done to the world. Now this is in particular offensive as it is the typical unnatural and anti-human dogma that is released from your lobby on a regular basis. What damage have we made to the world? And where is it exactly that you see vegetarians being the forerunners in countering it? Please, remember again the distinction between vegetarians and vegans as I have mentioned earlier.
Your last part is truly entertaining and shows that you should maybe study a bit more. Animals rape, murder (for pleasure), over-populate, destroy habitats and steal just as much as humans do. You contradict yourself (again) Här, as you clearly demonstrates both a disdain for humans and at the same time say that we know better than animals.
Apart from the fact that you somehow don’t see the difference between o and 0 I enjoyed your comment, and I hope that you will continue the fight and bring some friends. As you might know I was banned from Cathy’s Facebook page (one of her reasons being that no-one wanted to hear these views) – but I believe my blog here will do fine
i live on a plot, and i’m a vegetarian. t0 see vegetarianism as “d0gmatic” och ” a c0ver f0r eating dis0rders”. my w0rd!
and yes, by saying that the pe0ple who know the truth are scary, y0u pin p0inted y0ur m0tivati0ns f0r making these n0nsensical judgments/statements- y0u, and the w0rld, are afraid 0f the next rev0luti0n. much like we fought for woman rights, racial equality and are fighting f0r gay rights, we will fight for animal rights.
being a vegetarian is beneficial t0 your health (i am living pr0of), the envir0nment, y0ur mental well-being, y0ur m0ral being and a desire f0r peaceful c0-existence.
i have long learned that most meat-eaters are n0t intelligent en0ugh t0 try have a c0nversati0n with as they get defensive, make stupid comments such as “plants have feelings too”, “the bible says we may”, “y0u eating meat w0nt st0p them killing animals” och “humans are the m0re p0werful species”)
however, when people go out of their way to insult me or my fellow “veggies” i will n0t take it lying d0wn.
0nce the w0rld has seen the light, expelled denial 0f the facts and c0nd0nes free thinking, we vegetarians will be (and are) the f0rerunners of repairing the damage humans have d0ne t0 this w0rld.
i have seen the suffering 0f animals. animals love unconditionally, don’t build fact0ries that belch ozone damaging fumes, don’t over-populate or intenti0nly cause harm to others. theirs is a system we cann0t c0mprehend, theref0re cann0t judge. all we can judge is 0ur 0wn-we kn0w that rape, war, murder, stealing, molestation, etc. is wr0ng and yet we d0 it. s0 until we can find a way t0 c0mmunicate with the w0nderful things we call animals, i will base my acti0ns 0n the kn0wledge i have. i kn0w that eating them is wr0ng. i feel better 0ff n0w, and therefore will n0t be ap0l0getic 0r ashamed f0r being a vegetarian.
Dear Marina,
When a living body is damaged it reacts to the damage. Both a plant and an animal will react and “do something” if it is damaged. I am sure we can agree on that?
Then we go to the thing with animals and humans and the thing about pain. When an animal (for instance a human) is damaged, the damage results in impulses being send to the brain for processing. As the animal can move, the brain decides to get the animal out of the pain as quickly as possible. It releases pain impulses which stimulates the production of adrenalin. The adrenalin numbs the area and makes the animal fight against the pain.
In other words the pain is (though unpleasant) entirely made up in the brain and can be shut out. If we think it is okay to hurt living beings if they don’t feel pain, I would be slightly worried – and I am sure that is not what you think either.
My whole point of this string might have been lost to you as you entered the discussion a bit late. It boils down to:
1) Vegans are not vegetarians. They are political activists “blessed” with a dogmatic and unnatural understanding of the role of humans.
2) Focussing on cute animals with fur is very a-moral. When looking at the posts that Cathy Deichtman posts (and indeed that of many other animal-rights fighters post); it became clear that most of these people were city-dwelling women, who most likely had never been at a farm or in the nature. Why no photos of sweet cockroaches looking for new homes? Why no rats?
3) I have a problem with dogma, and I believe that people “who knows the truth” are very scary people.
As for your movies I am sure they are scary – and I still cannot see why it is that everybody here thinks I like meat? If you would like to educate you a bit on both your friends in good old communist Russia and how a body reacts to stimuli (e.g. pain), I can advise you to have a look here: http://www.interestingfacts.org/fact/dogs-head-lives-without-body. However make sure you have not just eaten.
Jens— In order to feel pain you have to have a brain, and a plant dont have a brain right…
Like if you hit me in the arm- the nervs “tells” my brain that Ive been hurt and the brain sends out pain to my body… I know a plant is alive, and responce and have energy- but it DONT feel pain. (you should read up on this, before you make a statement)
Please watch Meet your meat, glasswalls and earthlings— and if you still think that animals dont feel the same way that humans do– well then you might be a sociopath… I hope you will have a change of heart and see that we are vegans because we have a big heart, its not all about the tastebunds Jens
Thanks for that Jens. I really do appreciate it. And a big smile back to you
. Peace.
Good we can agree on something, and good that you try to
domake a differenceI now agree that you are NOT intelligent, Jens. And I was trying to save that puppy’s LIFE. The rest of your comments are not worthy of a response from me.
@Cathy Deitchman
Dear Cathy,
I disagree with you on 3 points.
1) I do not believe you are just vegetarians.
2) I am sure the fans of your Facebook page would have appreciated other thoughts than the “oh look at this sweet puppy” rants you find on it now.
3) I am neither intelligent nor do I have anything better to do than submitting my comments.
Ad1) You are not just vegetarians. You are politically motivated and indoctrinated dogmatists evangelizing a truly unnatural and self-harming way of life. Your group is split up between those that sees man as a mistake and those that use the excuse of being vegetarians to cover some serious eating disorder. Most of you are women and I am sure that all of you are city-dwellers. None of you have ever had a natural connection with nature or understood the place of man.
I would not be surprised if your group turned to mass-suicide or some radical attack on mankind.
Ad2) Most people likes a bit of drama.
Ad3) I believe and I hope that man is inquisitive in nature. I would be very saddened if your group is unable to open their minds to other thoughts than the rather silly messages that so far has been posted on your page. Banning people and stopping people in expressing intelligent views is VERY much against my nature. If I had gotten on your page and said that “people that are vegetarians are dumb”, or used profanities to underline my points: I would maybe have understood your reaction. I did not do that, and I have absolutely no problem with vegetarians or anyone else with eating disorders. If you are happy and feel well you should do so, and I would very much like to go completely green – full well knowing that it would be as UNNATURAL as being gay.
Jens, apologies for blocking you from the Vegetarians page on facebook. I simply cannot continue to have the same argument over and over again with you. It’s entirely too silly and an utter waste of my time. If you are someone who sees no difference at all between the killing of a plant and the murder of an animal—then you have no business talking to vegetarians. I spent a good deal of time and effort addressing your questions, and was confused as to why you wanted to continue along this same path. It seems to me that an intelligent man like yourself should have more useful things to do with his time than harassing vegetarians. I know that the members of my pages have more important things to do with their time than to continue to have the same silly arguments with you. It is for this reason that you have been permanently banned from our page. Be well and peace.
Dear Cathy.
I took the time to print out your response to my post on a nice piece of bleached Spanish paper and added it to my weblog for reference.
We completely agree on that some animals are treated horribly: I saw a video of some little critter that was skinned alive in China, and last summer it emerged that goose are plucked alive to fill the pillows and duvets of IKEA. I also find the Islamic custom of bleeding the animal to death horrible. Never having tried to die, that feeling might actually be wrong as it is probably a relatively painless death.
As I said animals need to be treated respectfully and the horror stories you mention about animals being killed are truly horrible; albeit not reality in all of the world. Fortunately the organic movement is flourishing in civilized parts of the world (like Scandinavia) and more and more is done to put focus on the care of livestock and the most humane ways of slaughtering them. In Danish there is a saying that “the care for the animals, shows the wisdom of man” (Dyrenes Røgt viser Menneskets Kløgt) – I think that is a very meaningful way of seeing it.
As humans we are able to do whatever we want – we are on the top of the pyramid, masters of the world. However as self-aware beings we should strive to make the “life-experience” as good as possible for all man, beast and plant. I am not a religious person and I find no need to invent a god with long white beards who gives commands to find truth in life. The bible, the koran, the torah and the old testament: were all created by man to bend other men to his will. The writings themselves are interesting seen from a historical and philosophical point of view; but to base any law or real-values on them would be scary. Doctrine is the killer of Liberty.
My knowledge of the vegan movement stems from mainly Wikipedia. I understand it as a left-wing anti-establishment movement that refuses to wear leather belts and sometimes releases mink from fur-processing facilities. I also understand that it is used to cover eating disorders and that the majority of followers are women.
I completely agree that not many Western meat-eaters would want to go to a slaughterhouse, and are only eating meat because it is packed in cellophane and cooled in the fridge. However a lot of people in the rest of the world kills the beast they eat with their own hands and cooks it themselves. It is the natural way for the majority of mankind to kill and eat! In other words I do not think that it is a valid point to think that if we didn’t have the industrial processing of animals to turn them into delicious steaks and slices of jamon; we would all turn vegan. On the contrary it seems that modern man will do his best to gain energy from eating animals if left alone and undisturbed by the media.
As an intelligent human animal, I am sure Cathy; that you can agree that WE decide what is right and wrong? That there is no right or wrong in the natural world of animals. These are concepts made of by man. It is therefore very interesting why man has suddenly decided (after having eaten animals all the way through pre-history and history) that it is now wrong to exploit the bees.
It is not a sane path to walk on; because it will ultimately lead to self-destructive feelings of being an evil beast. Nor is it a logical or fair deduction to say that man should only eat plants. Plants live and there is nothing that proves that a plant does not have feelings and self-awareness. In the same way as there are no proofs that dogs, cats, cows or bees have that. The only difference is that YOU have decided that it is okay to prey on unsuspecting and truly innocent living beings called plants.
That is unfair because plants never hurt us!
In fact I would say that it is a terrible crime to murder plants and grind them to flour while they are still alive!
Cathy Deitchman wrote on Facebook:
You make a lot of interesting points, and I do thank you for your time and thought. First off–there is NO branch of vegetarianism that permits the eating of fish or fowl. There are two types of vegetarians—lacto-ovo, who consume dairy and eggs—and vegan who do not consume dairy and eggs. NO vegetarian diet allows fish or chicken, but that … See Moreis a common misconception.
Vegans are NOT anti-human, but are PRO animal. We are NOT fighting for animals to have the same rights as we do—like voting (lol—you are funny:))! We are not lunatics! We choose not to consume products that are the result of cruelty to animals. How lovely it would be if it were true that farm animals enjoyed their lives and were well taken care of and happy to give us milk. I wouldn’t be a vegan or even a vegetarian if that were true! The truth is that animals are horribly treated in the process of factory farming, which produces most of the world’s meat, dairy and eggs. It is clear that you don’t know about factory farming or slaughterhouses. I will re-post some videos for you so that you can see the truth. Animals are hung upside down and have their throats slashed while still alive—and left to bleed to death. Veal is the product of rape of the mother cow, stealing of the calf, and keeping that calf in a crate where it can’t move so that it’s meat is tender until it is slaughtered a few months later. Dairy cows are hooked up to painful milking machines and kept in a constant lactating state until they can no longer produce milk—at which point they are slaughtered as well. Cheese is made by adding the stomach enzymes of the murdered calves to milk! Chickens are kept in cages and live miserable lives while producing eggs. And in the egg industry the male chicks are smothered or put live into grinders. So you see—it is this cruelty that we will not support! I will not participate in supporting that brutality. Also bees are often mistreated and killed in the production of honey. Yes, they are insects—but they are God’s creatures as well—-and I don’t need honey to live—so I don’t choose to eat it. And regarding other animals killing for food—yes—they do—but they don’t have the choices we do. We can choose NOT to kill and we can survive—and even be healthier. So why kill? Let’s face, it if the meat were not nicely placed in the supermarket shelves in those innocent looking packages for us—how many of us would really have the heart to go out and kill to eat? Me, I would be looking for berries. It’s all about living your life compassionately and with love and respect for all of God’s creatures. Vegans do not see all animals as THINGS that exist for our use, but rather as living beings with their own purpose. That’s what veganism is all about. And I don’t have a problem with animals being ridden as long as they are well treated. But to think for a moment that most animals are well treated is to live in a fairy tale. I hope one day it comes true. That’s all we are hoping for. And as for Jesus—yes I know about Him. In the Old Testament, we were instructed to care for the animals and eat fruit and seeds. We didn’t do that—so God gave us instructions about how to eat meat—the Kosher rules. Originally the plan was for us to be vegetarians—but our human nature prevented it. It’s in The Bible. By the time Jesus came along, his father had already given up that hope for us. But I am so glad that there are some of us that adhere to the original guidelines. And NO I do NOT see myself as better than anyone! And I do NOT judge anyone who chooses to eat meat or dairy or eggs. I just want the truth to be known so that we can improve the lot of animals in this world. And I want to live my life and have my meals as peacefully and as free of guilt as I can. Thanks again so very much for your input and for your respectful approach. It is much appreciated. Peace and love to you ?